Podland News

Pay Attention, Cash is King, Bitcoin is the native currency of the Internet and it's raining Sat's on Fountain.

February 11, 2022 James Cridland & Sam Sethi Season 1 Episode 61
Podland News
Pay Attention, Cash is King, Bitcoin is the native currency of the Internet and it's raining Sat's on Fountain.
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

GUESTS:

NEWS:

James:

Welcome to Podland the last word in podcasting news. It's the 10th of February, 2022. I am James Cridland, the editor of pod news.net.

Sam:

And I'm Sam Sethi, the MD of river radio, the podcast first radio station going live on dab James on the 1st of

James:

March.

Gigi:

Hi, my name is Gigi, and I'm here to talk you about Bitcoin lightning podcasting 2.0 and value for us.

Oscar:

Hi, I'm Oscar married from fountain dot FN. And later I'll be on talking about our new podcast, the wallet feature, which allows any podcast to get setup on the Bitcoin lightning network in just a few clicks.

Stewart:

Hi, I'm sure it towns in CMO and co-founder of podcast org. I'll be on later on to talk about how we can help you automate your process of getting booked from podcasts.

Evo:

And I am Evo Terra. I'll be on later to talk about my hall of fame induction. Woo.

James:

They will Podland is sponsored by Buzzsprout podcast. Hosting made easy last week, 4,400, and one people started hosting with Buzzsprout. You can too@buzzsprout.com and if you can use chapters in your podcast app, then Buzzsprout supports those two.

Sam:

Now over Christmas, James, I decided to read about web three, get my head around Bitcoin and SATs. And on Twitter, there was a handle called DGG. He was writing some really interesting stuff about booster grams and adding that to the timeline of a podcast player. He showed a graphic mock-up and he's written a book called 21 lessons that I learned falling down the Bitcoin rabbit hole. So I bought the book and it was really interesting. It was a backgrounder into how Bitcoin is now changing the way that we use money online. In fact he called it. Bitcoin is the native currency of the internet. he went on to say, not only is our fit money broken, but the monetization model of the internet is broken to the advertising base platforms. Day and age optimize for engagement by division and polarization using dark patterns and addiction by design. It won't be easy to break out for the compulsion loops that are set up for us. But thanks to the self-sovereign tech stack that is currently emerging, there is a viable, alternative, the value for value model. So all of that together, his conversation about that, his book and his thoughts on the attention economy. I thought I'd reach out to him and we got an interview with him. I came across Gigi over Christmas. He wrote a wonderful essay about the attention economy and micro-payment XXII. Hello? How are you? Hey, Sam. I'm doing very well. Thanks a lot for having me. Now you wrote this blog post called the freedom of value. It's got a lot of attention, no pun intended. And it was about the attention economy and micropayments. What made you write. Well, the things actually. So I think we can all agree that the internet could be better. I don't want to say that the internet is broken, but some parts of the internet are broken. And I think a lot of it has to do with the way that payments work online. I try to. Lay out why we are at the current iteration of the internet, how we pay for things online. And I also describe the problem of selling information in the first place. So trying to sell a good, that is non scars, like trying to sell it an image that you can just copy and paste online is a very tricky problem. And so I think we have to think about these things differently a little bit. This is what this essay is. So what is the attention economy? Explain that to me first, basically everyone got used to the current situation that we find ourselves in neighborly. That's, everything is free online, and you can just read and consume stuff without paying for it directly. And so you pay. With it for other meats and you pay by either being the product yourself, or by being forced to watch a lot of advertisements. And of course, like everyone knows that data is the new oil and we are all being harvested by Google and Facebook and Amazon and the rest of it. And so the name of the game is just getting. The most few time and the most eyeballs possible. And we all know these kinds of problems. I think one great counter movement to that is long form podcasting. So I'm very happy that this is happening, but it's sometimes suffering a bit from the similar problems that the written content suffers from that every week, everything devolves into soundbites. Clickbait. And you just try to get the attention of as many people as possible. I use this as one of the main examples to show where this leads and how bad the end result can get. I use Tik TOK is one of the cursed apps. Like it really finds out what you like, and then it feeds you. Crack cocaine. It really like it uses AI to figure out what you like. And then if it fits you, the shortest snippets, it can, and it gets your really addicted really quickly. And that's also why it's so successful. And I think it all has to do with how information is monetized online. And I'm interested in exploring alternatives to that model. The alternative model is adding in micropayment. Marc Andreessen Netscape said when he created the Netscape browser, one of his biggest regrets was not building in a micropayment system at that point. We're talking several decades ago now. And mark Zuckerberg. Try to build a micropayment system called Libra, thankfully that didn't succeed, but we now have a new micropayment system don't we it's based around Bitcoin using something called or Sam. Can you tell me more about what is this new micropayment system? It's difficult to understand because you have to parse everything apart. Why do payments. Work the way they work currently. Like why do credit card work and how do they work in? And you have to understand money first and foremost, like what money is and what its purpose is in society. And the difference between. Money and the currency and also the monetary base and the payments like visa and MasterCard for example, are our payment rails. And historically until 1971, we were on a gold standard. So you had gold. That was the base reality of money of the. The world use basically, and we were trading paper certificates, and that was a sort of payment system on top of gold and very similar. We now have like, the problem with gold is, and with traditional monies is that they just don't work online. Like you cannot send the gold bar via an email. It just doesn't work. So everyone understands it. And this is a very hard problem and Bitcoin solved this problem. And the problem with Bitcoin is though that it is not very suitable for high-frequency. Micropayments. So what we currently have with podcasting 2.0, and if your listeners don't know what podcasting to buy, I'd always about, I recommend checking it out and looking into the work of Adam Curry in particular, he understood very early on that. Now we have a way to send value. Online in a micropayment fashion so that you can do it in a very fine-grained way. Every minute you listen to a podcast, you can choose to stream Satoshis to stream small fractions of a Bitcoin to the podcast hosts. However, it is configured basically. And so what we have now is we have a new kind of money that works exclusively. In the information space. So it's not a physical thing. Bitcoin is another physical thing. You know, like you can't touch it, you can't call it in your house, but it is money that has all the characteristics of good money, just like gold. It's very much what gold used to be in the physical space. Bitcoin is in the information space and with the lightning network, which is basically a payment solution, very similar to Venmo and PayPal and visa and MasterCard. These are payments solutions on top of the existing monetary system. And for Bitcoin, the payment solution that is currently being used at that works since Kayla's really well is delighting network. And so when podcasting 2.0, does it combines all these things? It realizes that selling information, selling something to this non scars is an impossible problem. So you have to. Turned a problem on the 10th. It's like, here's my podcast. Here's my blog post here is what I have to offer. And if you like it you'll get value back. This is the core of the value for value model. So if you enjoy the content, you can set up your absence. It's like, you don't have to even think about it. Basically. You can set it up that I really enjoy this podcast. Every time I listen to it, I stream Satoshi's. I give Bitcoin back to the people that, that make it happen. And so it solves a couple of. Problems that we currently have online payroll is stonework. If something. Really good. We see this all the time with pirated movies and those kinds of things. If the movie is really good, it's really easy to download it. If an article is really good, someone will take a screenshot and we'll circulate it on social media, send it around in that central center or grab it in some other ways someone pays the paywall and then you copy and paste the whole thing. And that's it. The article is free. So the main thesis that I also lay out in the article is since information wants to be free and information can always be copied at zero marginal. Don't even try to build a cage around it. Don't try to sell information. Like it was an apple, don't try to sell information. Like it was a digital good. You have to think about it differently. And this is where the value for value model comes in. All of it is very new and we still have as a podcasting community, for example, that's a society in general, figuring out what works. And as you can probably tell I'm terribly excited about this because it already works. And some people that already can live off of this model and it works for everyone because it's an open protocol, just like RSS, just like podcasting. Like there are no good gatekeepers. Everyone can just create this, set this up. And it's a beautiful system really. And they're really. That we can turn this ship around, like Aaron turn, it turned the internet on its head, so to speak and offer more value to those that produce content to those that enjoy good high quality content and the cut out the middleman, which are the, the platforms of the advertisers and so on because with those kinds of models, There are all kinds of problems that immediately enter the picture. You run into a censorship issue. You run into all kinds of issues. If someone has a way to close down your accounts already platform you on a long enough time scale. This will usually happen. Joe Rogan is seeing that this weekend was Spotify, but so going back to it, as you said, let's focus back now on podcasting and. At value for value. We've turned these in podcasting boosts to grams and what they are from my understanding is the ability to be able to leave a comment along with a micro payment to the creator. So the listener can feed back on what they think of the podcast, but also. It gives them some micro reward as well. One thing I noted was that you did a really interesting mock-up on Twitter. You showed her a podcast player with boost to grams along the timeline. Tell me more about that. So the main idea is that once someone. Since this gram, because the payment is attached to it. And just maybe since this is so new, I assume most people are not familiar with this. So they, the idea is that you have two ways to give back in value for value. First and foremost, the things that we already discussed, that you can set up your podcast completely voluntary. Of course. So like you can listen to the podcast without giving back as well, but let's say you have a little bit of money in your podcasting app, and then you can do. That's like a fraction of the pennies is stream every minute. And this is just like a baseline that you give back. And if you really like something, those new apps, they have what are called boost buttons or where you can send a boost and you can think of it as clapping and throwing a couple more coins into the hats and the article. I. Busking analogy like a street performer. If you really like something, you just throw something in extra. And what's so interesting about the boosts is, and also about the street payments. This is a real signal, as everyone knows in the podcasting world, like all the measurements that are being used to pitch to advertisers, for example, it's like, I have so many downloads and I have this and that, then those kinds of metrics, sentiment, a lot of it is nonsense because if. Pop catching apps that just download all the feeds all the time. Exactly flames over. So it's nonsensical to use these kinds of metrics. And we have the same issues online that there are some people like myself that block out all the tracking and block out all those things. And so we don't even show up and all these metrics can be gained of course, as well. If someone decides to give you money, it's a very strong signal. Like it's really a pristine high quality signal that these are real users. These are not bots because I bought the army will not give you money. That's not how it works. And it was really engaging and it, it provided value to them and so on. So it's a direct signal. And that's what this idea of the visualization came from as well. Where imagine if you have your not only visualization and some people might. YouTube, for example, where you can see what parts of the video are being watched. And so it's the same idea basically, but it's not the eyeballs that you track, but it's the, the true value flows that you track when. Press the boost button and how much should he gave and those kinds of things. And the interesting thing about Bitcoin and the lightning network is that there is no middleman. It's a censorship resistant payment mechanism and you have the technical possibility to add a small short text message. With a payment. And so this is being used slash abused through built a feedback mechanism for the value enabled podcasts, where you can send a short piece of grandma's short message to the podcaster. And this is something that we explored as well with the things that we are working on at the tools that we are building. What fun ideas can you think of? What can you add to this message and how will people use this? And all of this is currently being explored by the people at the forefront. So one of the things. I noticed before Jack Dorsey left Twitter was that in the Twitter client, he's enabled a micropayment system using Bitcoin and sat. So if you go to the podcast, index.org, Twitter account, you'll see a currency icon. When you click on it, it allows you to pay Dave Jones and Adam Curry. If you say. Satoshi is for their tweets, which is great. Now it isn't common knowledge and most people aren't using it yet. Um, one of the biggest problems that most of the podcast apps have like fountain and the cast offsets you can't easily set up a wallet. So what I'm trying to say is it feels like there's stuff going on. So the value for value, this stuff that's going on with boost to grams, the lightning network, the stuff on Twitter. But I think one of our biggest problems as an industry is that it's still complex. Isn't it? It's still which one it should. I use. How do I set up a wallet? Where do I put my fear currency? Which one? It can I trust? How much should I pay? Where are you in your head with how we address those? That's a good question. And you're definitely right. That it's a little bit confusing in the beginning and it's very much, do you know those like news clips from the early nineties when no one knew what the internet was and what is. W though. And so that's where we're at currently with Bitcoin. No one really understands it and it's still a bit clunky and weird to use, but I can encourage everyone to just give it a try because there are some wallets that are super user friendly already, like wallet of Satoshi, for example, this is a one that's super easy to set up. Breeze is another one that I really liked. I view Bitcoin as the native currency of the internet. And if you want to do something. Online in the future, you will have to have this currency. I see myself as mostly living online. So Bitcoin is my, do you think the timeline will be before this complexity becomes simplistic? Because my favorite expression is complexity is failed simplicity. And where we are right now is we're in the complexity people. Most people would struggle if they had to understand. How to set up a wallet and how to buy SATs and how to then make the payment. So in certainly the invoice thing is certainly confusing. How do you think we're going to make this a much simpler, easier to understand. I think we are very close. I think we're almost there in the podcasting to Pardot apps. For example, you will never see an invoice. Basically. Everything is abstract that you press the boost button and it just made a payment without a middleman, which flies across borders. And it's virtually free, basically instant. And, um, for me as a. The regular feared world is where the complexity lies. I can recommend the book that I wrote to get a broad overview, which is called 21 lessons it's available online for free. So you can just read it without buying the catheter. And I run everything that I do on a value for value basis. All the things that I do are free available online. And of course, like for physical books, you can't copy and paste physical books yet. So you have to sell them in the old fashioned way, but everything else I give away for free online. And if you like it, it's very easy to give back. If you happen to have a couple of subtleties to your name, if you have a little bit of. And in general in Bitcoin, there are a couple of great books already now. So a couple of years ago there were zero books on Bitcoin, and now there's like a good dozen or two. And usually if you really want to dig down into the question of what is money and the history of money, and why do we need Bitcoin in the first place? The Bitcoin standard is often recommended. There's also the Bose case for Bitcoin, which is a great book. If you want to look again in the money side and then the answering the question, how this. Play out in the next couple of years and decades ahead in terms of the lightening and payment side of things and the podcasting 2.0 side of things. This is so new. There are no books about this yet. Basically there's one single lightning book, which is very technical. So it's mostly for programmers. I would say. I think it's called mastering the lightning net. You can also read this online for free, like it's on good hub. If you don't know what GitHub is, this book is not for you. And so what I would recommend if you're interested in podcasting 2.0 is look into the work of Adam Curry. Like he is championing a lot of that stuff and just play around with it. Some great new value enabled podcasting apps. You can see a list. You podcasting apps.com and also on the podcast index, you can see all the different kinds of podcasts that are a value enabled them to use their value for value model. And there are you don't like it started out very humbly. They were telling us like five podcasts that use this stuff. And now it's in the a hundred. Maybe in a thousand plus, and that's what just play around with it. Again, it might be intimidating at first, but don't be afraid to buy like $5 worth of Bitcoin and play around with some new podcasting apps. And there's a lot of fun to be had. I am Gigi on Twitter and also there gg.com is where all my long form writing is I helped to start a podcast as well called closing the loop where we discuss a lot of the things that we discussed today. And also the last episode where I was on talked a lot about the value for value model might be an interesting followup to this current. And again, Bitcoin resources.com. If you're interested in Bitcoin 21 lessons.com, if you want to get a broad overview of what this all is about and where it might lead. And that's basically it's thanks a lot for having me there.

James:

GG, and a really interesting, and I hear you talking about the cash app, not working yet and found him being really hard. and there's been used on that hasn't though.

Sam:

Yeah. really exciting. this week, Jack Dorsey who owns cash out formerly of Twitter has now announced that the lightning network integrates with Twitter and via the cash app. Of course, I tried it now. Anyone who wants to try this can, if you go on your mobile app to the podcast index Twitter account, you'll see a little dollar icon at the top. And when you click on it, it'll bring up Bitcoin and Satoshi's as mechanism of payment. So instead of giving them a retweet or a heart, you can now actually give them cash in the form of Satoshi's. last week or the week before, when I then clicked open my wallet, nothing happened. It didn't click through to anything. It just came up with a screen saying custodial or non-custodial wallet. But this week now that the cash apps on lightning, when you click it, it opens up your cash app and instantly you can make a payment.

James:

That's very smart. That cash app is available in the U S and the UK only. so obviously I can't play with it, but, it sounds as if it's pretty cool. I think you can send me an D pod news, Bitcoin through Twitter, there's a little, button on our profiles, but we can't use cash apps. So it goes direct to my umbrella instead. which is, probably a fine thing. In fact, I think the only thing you can do for me, because I'm in Australia is you can send me Bitcoin, but You can't send me SATs over the lightning network, which is a bit of a shame. But, yeah. interesting hearing that, that has moved on a little bit. and, and also interesting seeing, how many people are using it.

Sam:

a lot of people using, but one person decided to give a single Bitcoin, a hundred million SATs to Sydney muck, the people behind the movie, human B. that's a hell of a payment.

James:

it is how much is the Bitcoin worth these days?

Sam:

I'm not sure what 40 odd thousand dollars.

James:

Yeah, it's a sensible amount. It's find out how much is a bit coin worth, It's worth $44,261. as we record this, so yes, very nice. So there was that exciting news about cash app. And you also said that fountain app, it was all too complicated and blah, blah, blah. And there's been some movement on that too. Hasn't there?

Sam:

Yeah. friend of the show. he announced. Only this week that his podcast app fountain has launched they full podcast or what it making it the easiest way to own Bitcoin from your podcast app. All you have to do is search for your podcast, claim it in the app, and you can now monitor how much you earn, see messages. It's really simple. So Oscar gave me a quick demo and I caught up with him to talk about.

Oscar:

I'm here with Oscar, Mary, the founder and CEO of the wonderful fountain at Oscar. You've got some big news to tell us what's happening. So we have announced and just launched our found thin podcost a wallet. Now what this does is it enables any podcasts out there to start receiving Bitcoin from their listen. Through the value for value model that adamant day from podcasts. And next is set up in just a couple of clicks on fountain. So what we've done is we've made it really easy just to quickly claim your podcasts on fountain. We'll set you up with a Bitcoin lightning wallet and we'll update your what's called value block in podcast index, which means that just after those two clicks within. You'll be able to stop receiving Bitcoin lightening payments from your listeners from any podcasting costing 2.0 enabled. Great. Now, does that mean once I'd got Satoshis in my wallet? Can I export them anywhere? Yeah. So you can. Withdrawal them to any Bitcoin lightning wallet. We've just seen cash app in the U S announced that they've rolled out lightning to all of their users. So you can explore to cash app if you want, or any of your other Bitcoin lightning wallets. Now you've been testing clearly with creative spots, the feedback, the feedback has been great. I think one of the interesting things that we've found over the past six months, one of the reasons that we wanted to actually build. Product for podcast says, is that there's a lot of podcasts out there that actually do have the ability to receive Bitcoin lightning payments. And they're receiving the payments, but they're not necessarily receiving all of the amazing data that goes along with that. And that's actually one of the most exciting things about this feature. So within the fountain podcasts, You will be able to see not only the list of incoming transactions, but you'll be able to see a summary of which users are supporting you the most over time. And this is not just users on fountain. This is users supporting you from any other port costing to point out that you'll also be able to see which episodes have brought in the most. And this is a great feedback mechanism for you. So you can see that this episode was really good or maybe the way that I. For value back in this episode was actually worked really well. I'm going to, I'm going to go with that script again. I also have, we got, obviously we've got all of the incoming messages as well, so that you can just quickly view them and then use them as part of your show format, um, going forward. So we really wanted to make it just really easy to have all of the data from value, for value, just in one place where you can access it. Congratulations. Now, one of the things that people may not know, there's two forms of wallet, wants a non-custodial and wants a custodial. This is a custodial wallet, which means that you are holding the warning. Correct. Right now is a custodial wallet, but we're working on ways that we can extend that to at least have the non-custodial option for podcasters that want to take it to that next level. And there's some really exciting things. With the lightning network that should hopefully give us that ability, uh, further down the line. But right now yet is a custodial. Now that's brilliant for creators. Now, looking at the side of you. Obviously people who use the fountain app can put their wallet in and then start to reward creators with SAS. Do you have any plans to integrate with cash app or do you have plans to create a user enabled wallet locally in terms of cash app? Person in the U S can already send lightning from cash app into fountain really easily. That works today. Obviously the lightening within catch-up is not available in the UK. I think probably we won't end up offering the kind of fear on ramp or the ability to buy Bitcoin or lightning because that's fundament. A bit of a different business model and comes with a lot of regulations. So we probably will just stick with allowing people to send that Bitcoin on lightning, into fountain. I think the great thing that cash app shows us is that this is not just fountain and podcasting 2.0, talking about Bitcoin and lightning. This is happening globally. This is every digital finance app that wants to survive over the next five years is going to have to do this. The any poke cost is out there that have been maybe hesitant about this. I think that's a great signal to show you that this is a round and it's the best technology for the job. Fundamentally. There's no other payments technology that allows you to stream micro payments per minute. It just doesn't exist. It was a crazy one. Somebody given a hundred million SATs to this film called Cindy mark, a movie that say it's just coming out. So that will be one Bitcoin, but it's around 30,000 pounds. Now going forward. What else do you have in mind? When we first spoke probably about six months ago, it was all interesting ideas and stuff, and every time we speak or every time the market looks forward, we're beginning to move all those difficult geeky things out of the way. So what do you think is the barrier now for mass adoption? Great question. I think that's two things that are limiting the growth of body for that. I think the first is just making that initial onboarding easier. So I think cash app has made a giant leap forward in the U S market. I think suddenly you've got 60 million people that are aware of lightning and have a lightning wallet on their phone. I think internationally though, we still don't have the. Big players that are offering that, but I think that will come naturally over the next year or so. So I'm pretty optimistic that we'll solve that. The second thing that I think is limiting value value is just the education around. How do you talk about it on your podcast? How do you explain what value for value is, how do you ask your listeners to send you, uh, do you make it part of your show format? Like I know you. Do the booster Graham corner. That's one way of doing it. You could ask at the beginning of the show, you could ask at the end of the show, you could do a special Roundup episode at the end of each month. We're just starting to figure out the different options. And I think that's a really important piece because fundamentally it's not enough as a podcast that value enable your podcast. You actually have to talk about it on your show. You have to talk about it regularly in order to get people supporting, they will support if you ask them, but it takes. Do you see a point because now you've got the analytics about who your superfans are. Do you see a queen where the creator cause it's called value for value as a two way street gives stats back to the, the sun? Definitely. I don't see why not. I think the really cool thing about Bitcoin and lightning is that there's no limits to what we can do. We can be completely creative because at the end of the day, it's just programmable. So I'm really excited to see what we can do along those lines. I think we're still at the first stage. So that's why we'd launched the podcast, the wallet, because hopefully now it, maybe there's podcasters out there that have thought about doing this, but maybe they'd been a bit puts off by having to run their own lightening node or some of the other options that are out there. Now, if you're a poke cost that you can just set this up. Two clicks within fountain and you can start experimenting. So I think we've got to get as many podcasters on board as possible because the more podcasts that are doing this, the more examples we'll see if the best way to integrate it into the show. I'm really excited to see what people do with that. I think also the thing that you mentioned cash app. So when I go to my Twitter, Account. And I go to the podcast index account on Twitter. I've got a little dollar sign icon. When you click on it, it brings up a pop-up for cash Satoshi's or Bitcoin. And in the past that would just ask me for a wallet. And of course I'm not us and it wouldn't have. Only yesterday. Did I notice when I now click open one, it goes straight into cash app. As I have a local version of cash app and I think 300 million roughly Twitter users. So if there is a way that even a percentage of that starts to get into the Satoshi reward system value, I think it will begin to go mainly. Now very quickly, where can people get the fountain that tell them where they can go and try it? So you can download fountain on iOS or Android. It's live on, uh, both of those app stores. And if you're a podcaster that wants to set up your podcast to receive Bitcoin lightning through value for value, all you have to do on fountain is find your show on fountain, click the lightning bolt on your show page within the. And there's a big yellow button that just says claim podcast. And if you hit that button, you would just need to put in the owner email address that's in your eyes, that's feed, just so that we know that you have a control over that feed. And from there we work with Adam and Dave at the podcast index to just update your value block from there. So it's really simple one-click process. And then you can start asking your listeners to send you some stuff. A magazine or skip. Congratulations. Once again, look forward to the next big update from you. Speechy seen mate. Amazing. Thanks to my son. Pleasure.

James:

Oscar Mary from fountain, you can download fountain at today on both iOS and on Android, anywhere in the world. Amazing. It works anywhere in the world. Who'd have thought it and you can give that a go listen to this podcast on there, and you'll see all kinds of exciting things about streaming sets and about boosts too and castoffs has released a new feature, which also enables all of its podcast is to earn Bitcoin from listeners. it's one of the first podcast hosts to build in support for value as well. So if you're on castoffs, if you're hosting on castoffs, then you can, add the, Bitcoin information into there and away you go. And I think the difference though, between castoffs and fountain is that car stars has enabled a space for you to type in your Bitcoin node information. So that sort of thing, but what fountain has done is they've gone the whole hog. So they've given you a proper podcast, a wallet, which includes. All of that stuff. So it's a very different things. So many congratulations to Oscar, for doing that. And it's great to hear.

Sam:

Now, you had a report, which I thought was really good to juxtapose to all of this integration with cash and a fountain app. It was a report from mumbler that was released in Spain, where they looked at how podcasts is monetizing. What was the reports about

James:

James? Yeah. So it's, a report, looking at, how different, podcasts in Spain. so Spanish language obviously, but different podcasts in Spain are earning money or not. As the case may be 47% of people said that they're not earning money from their podcast, but quite a lot of people are from all kinds of things like selling their own services to sponsorship and advertising and so on and so forth. Just, a lot of really useful information around, podcasters and monetizing of, all of that from a mumbler, which is a Spanish company and it was kind of them to have got in touch with, pod news and given us an English translation in there as well. yeah, if you want to have a peak at that, you will find it a couple of days ago in the pod news new. Yeah.

Sam:

the reason why I found it interesting was how they're making money from their podcast. And if you juxtapose that back to what we were talking about with Satoshis and value for value, how long it'll be before podcasts are simply to, all that other stuff that's selling Casper mattresses and Dar. Advertising are can't be bothered with it. Or will the big podcasts still sell advertising, but the long tail focus on just building small network community.

James:

Yeah, I think, I'm a big fan of not diving into a binary, idea here and it must be one or the other. I think the value for value absolutely fits in as well as advertising. I think that advertising has a place. I think that sponsorship has. And I think the value for value has a place and actually they can co-exist if you want them to, you can choose one or the other, if you want to do that as well. But I think, the advertising model is tried and tested, and value for value is actually tried and tested. Just ask Adam Curry about that. I think anything that, offers creators choice in how they produce their content is a good thing. So really excited to hear that. You know, the future, isn't just selling Casper mattresses. The future is all kinds of other things in there as well. And

Sam:

we're not sponsored by Casper mattress just to be clear.

James:

No, we're not. We're sponsored by Buzzsprout though. And by sprouted, jolly good looking forward to seeing them at podcast movement, and also looking forward to seeing this year's podcasting hall of fame, inductees, which will be unveiled. Yeah,

Sam:

they unveiled, yesterday at 9:00 AM Eastern time. and who was in the hall of fame?

James:

Oh, lots of exciting people in the hall of fame, ginger Campbell, who is the host of brain science, mark Marron, who does WTF. What's that for, with mark Marin? I know that's not what it stands

Sam:

for. I thought that was quite clever if it was,

James:

but I think it should. What's that for we've married, Mikayla Matthews, who is host of side hustle, pro Dr. Emily Morse, who is host of second. Emily and CEO of chick flicks productions, Dave Sasha. Now, it said in the release that he, his host and producer of evil genius Chronicles, I will tell you that Dave Slusher was the first podcaster to say the word podcast. And our podcast, according to my Myra research. So Dave Slusher knows a thing or two about this world. He started podcasting in 2004 and has been doing it ever since. Also Glen Washington, who's producer of snap judgment, Molly wood, who I used to listen to a long time ago on nets, a buzz out loud. she is now working on this week in startups. and finally a very nice man, a proud bid owner and pipe owner, the host of podcast pontifications and CEO of simpler media productions. Evo Terra.

Sam:

Yeah. I caught up with him yesterday just to say congratulations and find out what he felt. Having gotten his hall of fame. I'm honored. I'd got one of the new hall of fame, inductees friend of the show. Truly wonderful. It's Evo Terra. Hello.

Evo:

Fine, Sam fine. Thanks for having me on here. The funny thing is I used to be sent out into the hall quite a bit as a student, but being inducted into the hall of fame is quite an honor

Sam:

tying that back to the teacher. Exactly. He talks too much. He'll never make anything of it. Now look at

Evo:

it. It doesn't apply himself. Can't stay focused, wants to talk nonstop, tries to make everybody laugh. Hey, look, what I got. When did you find that out? I got the announcement this morning, obviously, as everybody else did here in the states, when the embargo is dropped

at 9:

00 AM Eastern time. But I got a phone call from them a couple of weeks back. And really the reason the phone call was to say, are you coming to the event? I don't think the award gifting was predicated on your attendance or not. I think they were saying, if not, can you shoot a video? But I said, luckily I have already purchased a ticket to the event. So good news. I will actually be there to pick up my piece of acrylic. Well,

Sam:

James, now we'll be out there with you as well. So we look

Evo:

forward to it. It'll be fun to meet in person for the first time I'm looking forward. Indeed

Sam:

now, what does it mean to be in the

Evo:

hall of fame? So I'm pretty stoked because as I said, in my episode of podcast, pontifications, which I've decided to release tomorrow. Cause not everybody can go to the award ceremony. It makes me sound a little bit like a dirt bag here, but I'm not the kind of guy that actually seeks. Awards. I'm not that way in podcasting. I was never that way. When I ran an agency, in fact, the agencies that I worked at, we had a policy that we would not submit to awards because we wanted it to be about the work itself and not about the accolades that we get. So that's something I've carried with me for awhile, but at the same time, I'm incredibly honored. I've been doing this for a long time and to be recognized by my peers, many of what you've also been. For a long time. It's almost overwhelming just to look at the list of people who are in there already. And to know that some of them said this guy's efforts and podcasting is worth having that accolade to his name. Now, what

Sam:

do you think is going to be happening this year? 2022 in podcasting? It's early enough in the air. Let's get Evo Tara's

Evo:

view on that. Like every year, this is the year podcasting. And we've been saying that for the longest time, but it continues to feed. That there's so much opportunity. Last year was a big mergers and acquisition year. I don't think 20, 22 is going to be any less of that. In fact, for the rumblings that I'm hearing out there, I think it's going to be more, so we're going to keep seeing large companies swinging large bags of money around and entering this space, or conglomerating this. And that's both good and bad for all of podcasting, but I tend to like it as a good thing, changes always comes with its challenges, but I think it's a good thing because that will continue to put the spotlight on podcasting and hopefully in ways that continue to bring more people into. We'll have to wait and see what the numbers come out from medicine research this year, but we haven't cracked that 30% number in the states. At least the people who listen on a regular weekly basis. So I'm hopeful that we'll see more people coming into the space as the, as more attention is poured on it from these big mergers and acquisitions. My big

Sam:

bet with James is the Netflix will buy

Evo:

Spotify. So that's one of many ideas that I've heard floated around there. Google will they do something in podcasting worthwhile or not? How many times have we said that? I dunno, maybe it's finally the time for YouTube to do something. I think the people that run YouTube or are a little different than the regular Googlers, and I think they see all the attention of podcasting that's taking place. So they may come in and make it a big change. I'm always puzzled. And I've been puzzled about this since the beginning of podcasting. Why audible, which is now owned by Amazon. Doesn't take a bigger stake. Podcasting, audible. What apple did with iTunes back in 2005, they would clearly be the default standard because they already had a spoken word mobile platform. And the fact that they don't do more always puzzles me. So I'm not counting Amazon slash audible out of making a next great big push and flipping things upside

Sam:

down. The other interesting thing that I think. And I've just interviewed OptiScan Mary and a Gigi as well is about the value from value. So Tashi payments, micropayment systems, it was exciting to see cash out, supporting the lightning network last night. And it's been exciting to see how that's already integrated straight into Twitter now. So quick access to wallets and give the 300 million odd people who use Twitter. Nah, a nice slither of that. Maybe 5% can get their heads around creating a digital wallet. And instead of giving you a heart or a like, or a retweet giving you some stats, I think that's a great step in, hopefully, maybe. Paul fade go away. Podcasters who create something, but get frustrated that there's no engagement or interaction or monetization. None of us really want to sell Casper mattresses

Evo:

by that too. I am not a crypto bro. I get it a little bit. I have spent hundreds of the dollars on crypto, right? Not anything more than that. I like the idea of value for value. To me, the biggest barrier is getting people who are not crypto bros to get on board. And this is not for the faint of heart. It takes work from both sides, from the podcast or side or from the podcast listener side to do something. So seeing. Like, I know the fountains released some new stuff coming on. There's a bunch of others that are now making it a much easier onboarding process when it's as easy as giving someone at PayPal payments or signing up for a Patrion account or clicking that tip button, as you mentioned in Twitter right now, when it's that simple and it's that integrated, I think that is an engagement. Some people do more often say yes, I would like to show my love to that podcast. Are there now? Will there be enough? That do that. There is still the 99 1 rule that says 90% of your audience won't do anything 9% maybe will, and 1% will do it. So if you're a podcast with a hundred listeners, which is around the average number of listeners, the average podcast has a, that means, well, give you some boost. That mean a feed from pod fading. I don't really know, but nonetheless, I am encouraged by making it easier to access this form of listeners and maybe not the head.

Sam:

If only 1% the head get it. But I think if you're a small podcast run and you get that engagement back, it reminds me of blogging in the day. When you blogs, just getting a comment in your blog. You gave you that extra juice to go write your next post because you thought my God, I've just sweated tears and blood over this thing. And someone's actually read it and giving me something back. I think that may be just the requirement of it rather than it's my retirement fund, but it could be just, you know what, that's just a nice pat on the back. Thank you so much for letting me know you're listening and I'm onto my next

Evo:

step. I remember back when Twitter first hit the scene a few months into it. One of its benefits was quite often. You'd write that blog post and you check the next day and you get a big goose egg for comments, but back then, we're talking 2006. You could put a tweet out and within 10 minutes you get off. Okay, you get, maybe somebody would retweet it even with a small audience. So if we podcasters and more importantly, the podcast app makers can figure out a way to provide that sort of a feedback mechanism to just so you know, people are actually listening because you don't know that. You only know that from your download numbers, which don't mean lessons, you can log into apple or you can log into Spotify and get that. But even that's only a sliver of your, of the information that is tied to that platform. But if you could know, overall people are continuing to get what you want to say. I think that helps podcasters keep. And also help refine your show. If splitting this kind of content out gets me more kudos, gets me more. Woofy whatever word you want to use, then that's the way I will structure my show. That's hard to do when you get one piece of feedback a month. Now

Sam:

with the hall of fame, once you get, you get a plaque because you got a badge, what have you got

Evo:

full of fame? I get a Learjet and a lifetime supply of cookies. No, I have no idea what I get actually about half of the recipient from prior years are friends of mine because I've been in this space for so stinking long. I know they've got a plaque and we get to be up on stage and do some stuff. But beyond that, as far as what the other. Bonus pieces we get for being that other than bragging rights. I'm not sure. I guess I will find out when and or if something arrives in the mail or when I'm on stage at podcast movement,

Sam:

Eva terror, remember lasers and gentlemen, you need to bow now you'll be wearing Ermin and a golden set to, with a microphone on the top. That's how you're

Evo:

recognizing. Yep. I'll be just like Chris Rock's character in fifth element Ruby ride. On a more

Sam:

serious. Now, if anyone wants to listen to your brilliant podcast, where can they go

Evo:

check out podcast? Pontifications, that's probably the biggest thing that I'm doing these days. It is designed for podcasters like yourself. We talk about the future and the present of podcasting and discuss ways that we can. All of us podcasts were to work together to make podcasting better. Say, thanks, Sam.

James:

The very nice Evo Terra he's promised me a beer or he's promised that I can buy him a beer at podcast movement evolution. Yeah. I don't really know which way round, but anyway, however it works. and so looking forward to seeing him there and if you want to see, the hall of Famers being given all of their fancy trophies and everything else, it's presented by Libsyn and it's on March the 25th at podcast movement evolutions in Los Angeles. You don't need a ticket for podcasts moving to evolution, as you can just rock up, I believe. and a watch. so that's all very good. And of course you can also watch online too.

Sam:

We'll be watching live. James

James:

won't. We. we were watching live there. Yes. Our be giving, all of the inductees, a big round of applause and everything else under hopefully trying to record a little bit for the pod news podcast as well.

Sam:

charts. everyone loves a chart there and they, James there's a lot of them out this week. ed, some research has released the top 50 U S podcasts for 2021. Who's in the list.

James:

Well, amazingly enough, the Joe Rogan experience is number one. and in fact, the top five haven't changed. So what Edison research do is they release this report every quarter. It contains, the last 12 months. Podcasts listening. And the way that they do it is they ask people every single week, what podcasts are you listening to? and, they end up with a great big list of very popular podcasts in there. from number five to number one at five stuff, you should know what for this American life at three crime drunk here to the daily. And number one is the Joe Rogan experience. so that was nice to hear. But then there was another chart, pawn track, who, release a chart every month or so, which is participating publishers only. And it shows that I, heart radio is number one for podcasts. And the number one is the daily, which is all very exciting. And NPR number two, and a number three and NBC news up at number four at the Ben Shapiro show at five. So you've got that chart, which has gone on as well. And then you've got the pod chaser 25.

Sam:

I list of the hottest up and coming podcasts. So come on then. James, who's the hottest in upcoming podcast in the pod chaser twenty-five

James:

I asked how they, worked it out. and families who kill is the number one show. Never heard of it, but maybe that's the point. of how all of this works. it's worked out by a proprietary scoring system. A pod chaser have listening stats from a podcast app, or maybe a couple of podcast apps. they won't tell me what the podcast apps are. The only thing that they will say is 20 million years. But I don't know whether that's 20 million users in the us or across the world. but, they also have though another 29 data points, which they wouldn't tell me what any of those are. apparently some of them has something to do with social media. So maybe if you follow followed on social media a little bit more, then you might get a little bit higher in this chart and blah, blah, blah. but I could get very little information about any of this. and they're called hottest up and coming podcasts. I went through the list. One of the podcasts in that pod chaser 25 was released only a couple of weeks ago, right? At the end of January. some of the other charts in the Paul Chase chaser 25 were released at the beginning of December. So I'm not quite sure how that works in terms of these charts as well. And I'm just, I don't, I dunno, I'm just looking at pod tracer and I'm thinking there's an awful lot of black boxes there where they're not telling anybody how anything works. And I'm just a little bit dubious about the whole thing. I thought I'd go in and have a look. I can see, the data for pod news in there. So I thought, that'll be interesting seeing what that data shows and how many listeners that it thinks that pod news has. It thinks that pod news does 25,000 downloads a month, except pod news does a hundred thousand downloads a month. So that's wrong by a factor of four. again, I'm just slightly worried that they've got this tech, which isn't probably tuned particularly well, and they're diving into something which just seems a bit proprietary and a big black box. And if they're not telling us quite how it's worked out, then, I don't know, I'm just slightly dubious, but maybe I'm just being miserable about the whole thing. And maybe they're doing a fantastic thing for the industry.

Sam:

Have you called over the January blues yet? You not quite finished with them. Have you?

James:

Ah, I would tell you what a thing to say. it's all this talking about Joe Rogan. That's what it is. I'm really hoping that we're not going to talk about Joe Rogan.

Sam:

we pushed it all the way down to the bottom as far as we could, but I think we have days. the boy likes to be in the news. He is the number one, as we just said all over the Edison research. you can see why Spotify love him as well. you had an exclusive this week, James, from. report about what's going on with the Joe Rogan controversy, what was the exclusive report about?

James:

Yeah, it was exclusive data and really good to see this information because it really made you think, it came from signal hill insights, it's data from both Americans and Canadians. And I think that's important. Yeah. when you look at, the Canadian data, 53% of people say that Spotify has a responsibility for editorial control, that is considerably lower, only 40% of people for Americans, but that's still the most popular choice for Americans, but it's really polarized. if you have a look in the middle, of people who really haven't made a decision one way or the other, should Spotify have editorial control, should it be Joe Rogan, should Joe Rogan be able to release anything he wants? then there's a little bit of information, Then there's really not that much. middle ground it's either. I really believe that, Joe Rogan is wrong and that Spotify should be, exerting editorial control or on the other side, Joe Rogan can feature whoever. And that's particularly strong in terms of Americans, 37% of all Americans say that Joe Rogan can say whatever he wants because of that whole freedom of speech thing, which is very much part of the American culture. But as you can see here, not part of the Canadian culture. So I just thought it was really interesting data from signal hill insights. And there's a bunch more data in the report that they, kindly shared, with, as well. and I think it just goes to show that actually, a it's really polarized, but also B don't go thinking that everybody wants freedom of speech because that's definitely not the case. And don't go thinking that everybody just wants Spotify to editorially control this. Because again, that's definitely not the case either. It's very much a very polarized view on that.

Sam:

So yeah, you're talking about myopic Americans again.

James:

Well, good Lord. Mr. Sethi, do you want to get into Los Angeles in a couple of weeks time? I

Sam:

certainly won't be mentioning that to the, border control man though.

James:

I don't know whether it's a myopic Americans. I don't think that's particularly fair, but I do think that there is a definite difference in terms of culture. And I think that's where. We have found it difficult to talk about this because we have different cultures. We are not American. And I think that is, the big thing. the other thing that came out of this is if you listen to the Joe Rogan experience, then you completely side with Jerry. Absolutely you do. I'm the only one in five of Joe Rogan listeners think that Spotify should have any responsibility at all. whereas Joe Rogan listeners, for us of five nearly basically say, absolutely Joe Rogan should invite whoever he wants on and they should say whatever they like. so again, really interesting seeing that sort of side of it. Yeah. I

Sam:

don't have an issue with Joe Rogan, having any guest on and saying what he likes. I think it's up to him. I was listening to Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway and they were saying, look, this is not cancel culture, which Daniel Lac was trying to label it too. This is just about simple facts. This is misinformation. And you can't be going around talking about certain things, informing people wrongly when they're not facts and that's all. Correct the facts or but you can't call it canceled.

James:

And playing devil's advocate. Of course it's not necessarily misinformation. It's just different information and it's information that we don't necessarily hear too much in the media. I should also say by the way that this data is prior to the video appearing of Joe Rogan, using the N word, more than 24 times. and there was also a video that came out with, Rogan, joking about sexual assault as well, which isn't necessarily the brightest thing. so maybe. thoughts may have changed since that, but, yeah. as I say, I, it is interesting seeing that basically the concept of freedom of speech is actually quite a polarizing concept. and, I went onto the podcast index.social. the other day to say, we might want to be quite careful about promoting podcast index as the best end of free speech, because 40% of Americans don't like that idea. and that went down like a bucket of sick, but nevertheless, it was nice. It was worthwhile doing. 70 Joe Rogan, episodes disappeared from Spotify last weekend. And the reason why is that Joe Rogan wanted them gone, at least according to Daniel EK. Daniel Lac has given some guilty money, a hundred million dollars, for, audio content from historically marginalized groups. You don't do that unless you're feeling slightly guilty. Interesting to see, that's but he then adds that he doesn't believe that silencing Joe is the answer. And then rumble offered Rogan a hundred million dollars to move his show to the platform, which was a very clever tweet from rumble. Of course, Joe Rogan won't do it. but they've earned significantly out of the. The marketing and the PR of doing that. I was going to say, well done rumble. Although of course looking at the types of people who are on rumble, maybe not.

Sam:

it'd be quite nice to put them all together in one pot and ignore it.

James:

there's an awful lot of a right-leaning people though. I got into trouble for even saying that rumble was right leaning. And, and I replied with the Wikipedia article and I said, have a look who's on rumble, mate, have look who's on rumble and then come back to me, bless them. I think this week I've just found the whole Rogan thing where. and a bit tedious that actually people are so polarized around it. and they're so miserable that they will just go and, and complain about absolutely anything. somebody complaining that I called rumble a right leaning video service. When you have a look at the type of people who are on it, hello. but unfortunately it seems that, the world is getting. Even more polarized and that's one of the unfortunate side effects. Yeah.

Sam:

Pandora's box has now been opened about platforms and publishers in podcasting.

James:

And unlike Pandora, actually, people are listening to it. yeah, there is always that

Sam:

moving on. yes. Edson research and ad results. Media are to Debbie, their super listeners report in a webinar. Oh, coming up next week, February the 16th, it focused on people who listened to five or more hours of podcasts. Weekly was this one J.

James:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this Marcia Williams from ad results, media and Tom Webster friend of the show from Edison research. I'm assuming he's a friend of the show. I have an interview request in for that because I would like to learn a little bit more. These are people who listened to a lot of podcasts, so they will have. Really good views on how much advertising there is in podcasts. And, are you getting bored or irritated with the same ads all the time and all that kind of stuff. So very much looking forward to hearing what they end up saying. hopefully we'll have Marshall and Tom on the podcast next week. And if they're not, then you'll know, that their PR team have declined us probably how.

Sam:

Now, moving on a couple of stories that I thought were interesting, you wrote about, Audrey has launched paid promotions for podcasts as a way to promote your show in others. And they've got more than 50 shows that are all ready, taking place.

James:

Yeah, it's a really good idea there. So you pay $10 or something and you can promote your show probably with a little, a trailer or something in someone else's podcast. This is a clever idea that is actually very different to advertising. It's actually going and finding a podcast, which is similar to yours. so I think that's very smart. audrey.io is the place to meanwhile refinance, has launched a new tool. They will show you how many subscribers and followers you have in various players and services, which is quite cool, not the massive big ones, but some of the, a 1%, 2% market share podcast apps. So for example, it shows me that I have one. Thousand subscribers, or followers in a podcast addict, a whole 164 in Castbox and a whole nine in the podcast app, whatever that is. some quite interesting, data, and of course that's a data which is available for everybody. So pretty cool stuff from a refinance.

Sam:

Yeah. And I got in touch with a new company called podcast Hawk. their CMO Stewart Townsend. Contact me. They've got a company that it's in Manchester, in the UK. It's very similar to pod chaser, pro Rick phonic and Audrey, and they describe pod cast Hawk as a search engine for podcasts, you find the ones you want to be on. We get you access to the hosts, contact details. You can email the manually, or you can build an inbuilt campaign. and yet. Says it's very similar to also another company I've not really used myself. Listen notes. Have you used at listen notes yourself?

James:

Yes, I have an LIS notes is a pretty good service, so yeah, it'd be interesting to find out what Stuart Townsend said from Paltalk.

Stewart:

Who or what is podcast Hawk? It's simply where a platform, a SAS based platform that automates the process of getting booked on podcasts. So we save you that time of go search and reach out to become a guest on a podcast. That's it. In a nutshell, is that a problem? Is that an issue? How did that come about from you guys come up from two angles, Ralph. He wants to get some podcasts to build his brand. Now he's got a language based business and is I want to promote my business. So last year or maybe a year, two years ago, I can't remember what time-wise. Now he has a niche and it was like, I want to get on these podcasts is simple, spent a day going through Google iTunes, try to find ones that were active and then getting the contact details. So reach out to those podcasts. And within that day, we managed to reach out to three or four podcasts. So being a developer, you thought I'll build a solution to this. And that's where it started. Literally that I came at it from a different angle. I wanted to find out all the guests and see how they were associated. And that's how we came together. Okay. This work in the way that I can come to you guys and say, look, I'm in sector X. I want to reach all the podcasts in that sector. Tell me who they are. Is that. In the sense of that you would do the work. We're not an agency, we're a platform, but so you were coming to the platform and we've got the ability to filter the podcast by category dates, alive, et cetera, all those sort of things and keywords. So if you were looking for a marketing, yeah. Go and find all the podcasts in marketing and we'll return all those results here. Do you take the standard RSS categorization or do you enhance the data? So at the moment we're taking the standard categorization, we're bringing some more dation as well, but also we have a team of human beings, agile people, not AI, not AI, not ML. There was an acronym. And we go through the top podcasts that alive basically. Cause there's so many that aren't and we're starting to add data to our own data. So languages is one element is the category, correct? All those sort of things. So we're cleaning up the data. But you can imagine at the moment, we've got 2 million shows in the database and we've got them over three to 4 million coming in there, plus all the episodes, but it's going to take a long time. So here's your competitors who in the market space, can people anchor themselves? Yeah, it's interesting because up until about 18 months ago, this wasn't a problem. So you've got pot chase approach. So they came from the basis of being a sort of two-sided marketplace. And now they have a product similar to ours. In the sense of you can go and find the contact details. And what podcast of the show we've got a common. They've come about in the last 12 months, similar aspects to ourselves. And then you've got listened notes, which only been in this industry. Now has a database of podcasts has been around a while now. And again, has the contact details and all sorts of show details on that sort of thing. And that database that you can pull through an API or make a request and get, so the question that's going through my mind is are you using any of the podcasts index taxes? If it's a search engine, and if I want to find the person. Would you be using the person tag, or if I want to find the location, would you use the location at the end of this quarter, for those that are in sales or for normal people? The end of March, we will be. So that's our project this quarter. That's how we've kicked off. So we've built the functionality over the last 12 months. Everything works. You can search, you can do all campaigns and stuff. Now we're on a big data exercise. So we're bringing all that richness of a podcasting debts. How do I use the product? Do I sign up? Is it free? What's the cost of it's a seven day trial and you get 10 credits, 10 credits equates to, 10 contact details of a host and you'd log in supply. And get started from there. And then we have plan starting from $39 up to $79 per month with rolling credits around that and think of credits as just a contact persons details around that. And in some of the higher plans, we have a campaign feature, which is our differentiator, which is our automation tool. You build campaigns to reach out, to get on shows. And we do that in the background. It all happens. You don't have to follow up. We have a three or four day drip campaign, and that is separate from credits. Credits is active. The contact show, host campaigns and emails and searches. Any other activities is all part of everybody's. So you said you're a platform, not an agency is the goal eventually to move, to become an agency. So could someone say, look, I want to reach out and get my CEO onto. They sit vertical sector transport, or let's say fast moving goods and you go, no worries. We know the top 10 podcasts. We can give you the data. We can give you the analytics. You can cherry pick the ones you want. And through us, we'll get you as a guest onto those shows from reach. Certainly we'll be calling an agency cause raised, come from that background. I've been involved in agencies before. It's a challenge and painful, but we do have clients, our agencies, and we'll have a, again, some functionality coming out in Q2 Q3. That is designed for agencies to have access to the platform, give them all the user access around that. But that's where a lot of our tests has come from. We've had people that are book authors based out in a forest in Canada that have limited technology knowledge. And then we've got agents. Is it using the platform to save them time and reduce that process of searching and costs? So let's say it's Portland, for example, do we have to do anything as Portland with you? To claim anything or do anything as the relationship? No. So not at the moment. We will bring the data in from podcast index or from iTunes or any other data sources. We then marry to it, external API data sources. So there could be social data mapped against that web data backlinks, that sort of thing. But as a host of a podcast now, as we move forward, But this year, we'll reveal those podcasts as pages can make a claim. And there's other platforms that do that is lots of other platforms that have that available. But what we want to do is then make that available and then updated to give people the capabilities to, to own that page. And so. Okay, fast forward 12 months, where will podcast hope beam? What's what, when he Peter deliverance. So they've got all these to be the defacto platform to automate the process of getting booked on podcasts. So giving individual users the ability to build up their personal brand and share their knowledge for the creative space is a great one for that. Or moving up to large agencies that have. Sense of clients they want to reach out to and get them on podcasts or PR agencies. And in the back of that, we want to be the de facto data standards. So we have a thing called the podcast, hope score, which rates podcasts based on different metrics that are alive and it's ever changing. And as we bring more data in that will get plugged into that. So we want that score to be recognized and published externally. Brilliant to remind everyone the very quickly, where can they go and how the can they try and test podcast hall? Yep. So go to podcast, hort.com. That's P O D C a S. H a w K u.com podcast.com. If you want to reach out to me, I'm Stuart, a podcast, hort.com. I'm supposed to Scottish way. I'm slightly awkward way. So it's S T E w a R T. Love to get feedback, love to get people's awareness of it and just go and sign up for a trial there's no credit card needed. It's 10 credits. Start to test the platform and start to reach out to them, host and get some of those benefits of what we talk about is the benefits of SEO. Once you're on the podcast, you become part of their community in their outreach. And you're getting side benefits of that. Guest podcasting is the new guest blogging chert Townsend. Thank you so much. Good to say. Hey, thanks. Thanks. I'm good.

James:

Stuart Townsend end from podcast Hawk, the summer loads of information on the website as well. And some very pretty pictures I should say, alongside, all of the tools that you need to be a rock star podcast guest, which is, a smart thing. yeah, worthwhile taking a peek at the websites at podcast Hawk dot.

Sam:

Now you've got another exclusive on pod news, James it's audio Chuck's new podcasts. The deck has been accused of copying a similar show from May, 2020. you spoke to one of the co-hosts, what was the story?

James:

Yeah. So this is a podcast that audio Chuck, as Ashley Flowers is a podcast company, they've just launched it. It's called the deck. It's a really good idea. It focuses on playing cards that are given to us prisoners and those playing cards contain information about unsolved crimes because of course. People talk in prison and you end up finding out a, rather more about your cellmates and other things. And it could be that people know a little bit more about these cold cases. So that's why the information is put on playing cards. and the deck is a podcast, which is focusing about those particular cases. And if that sounds familiar than it should, because dealing justice was a podcast that was launched, last year, which is exactly that too. And, what dealing justice have been saying is that the deck basically have rocked up stolen their idea, stolen their format, and have used, format for their idea without actually working together with them. It's not the first time that Ashley Flowers has been accused of plagiarism. crime junkie was a clue accused of plagiarism in 2019, after basically, copying other people's work. and it, from, talking to the dealing justice people, it seems as if that's happening. Again, I have reached out to audio Trump. They haven't responded, they are very aware of the story in pod news. They haven't responded to that either. there's just an awful lot of, really obvious. similarities in between these two shows and it does seem a bit of a shame for a large company with lots of money to come in and basically go, oh, see that idea. We'll steal that and take that and use that a little bit further, which may or may not be what they've done, but it certainly, the seems to be quite a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that they did know about this particular podcast in the first place.

Sam:

I wanted to pick your brains on a similar topic, James, that I got asked a question earlier this week by somebody and I didn't know the answer. I thought I'll come to the font of all knowledge.

James:

could you not find in,

Sam:

if, for example, Open RSS, right? Let's say you wanted to take, cause this happened on Spotify and I think I know the answer, but I want to check. So let's say I wanted to take wreckage surveys is podcast or I it's not locked. and I wanted to put it into another platform and I want to. D a, I ads either side of his podcast. Now I don't own the license or copyright to Ricky podcast. Am I legally allowed to put ads around it though? Using Dai?

James:

Because it's not your copyright and it's not your stuff to monetize. so no, you absolutely can't. the difficulty with anything which is, based on RSS is that by its very nature, it is open and you can put a lock tag in there and a lock tag is fine. And if you are a good podcast host, you will recognize. Lock tag and not allow, somebody to import that particular podcast. but there are plenty of podcast hosts out there that don't. And so therefore, what you do.

Sam:

Now of course, one of the questions you mentioned the lock tag. So native RSS has no concept of a lock tag. It's part of the podcast index namespace extensions. So 90% of podcasts still are native RSS. So is it the fault of the hosts and the fault of the apps? When probably most of the RSS they ingest doesn't have a lock tag,

James:

the long tag is becoming more and more used. Libsyn rolled out support for it a couple of weeks ago. Buzzsprout has had support for it for a while. it seems a relatively easy thing to do, but you also have other podcast hosts who I've talked to who say it's a complete waste of time. Why on earth would we do that? Because it's trivial to get past and yes, there's absolutely that point too. it is difficult, but at the end of the day, it's just putting something in front of people to basically say, yeah, no, you shouldn't be importing that particular podcast somewhere else. That's a bad idea.

Sam:

Now, you and I have disagreed on this next item. I just wanted to cover the license tag, which is part of the, also part of the namespace extension, as users like in fountain and with other apps start to create user-generated. Contents nips does it as well. For example, we potluck, I don't think we were worried about people, snipping parts of our content or clipping them up and sharing them. But let's say you were a more famous podcast as somebody like a wreckage of A's. Again, who's comedy is his copyright. He might not want someone to be able to clip or snip them up just like Locke shouldn't. We start to include things like creative, common licenses with podcasts, as well as copyright.

James:

I don't think it's a case of creative commons licenses. I think it's a case of our clips allowed in this podcast. Yes or no. And having worked for the BBC in the past, they are paranoid about, clips of BBC shows being used without context, being used, to try and, highlight something that they actually weren't. and I think that there is something to be said for that. I think, at the end of the day, the creator should be respected. And if a creator turns around and says, I don't want you clipping my show up, thank you very much. Then I think there should be a way of signing that in the RSS feed, it still won't stop, bad people from doing it if they don't want to. But I do believe that, there is something there in terms of respect of creators, to end up doing that. I'm not sure that license tags of the other right. to be honest, but I do think that the should be a way for us to basically turn around and say, no, I don't want you clipping this by the way. No, I don't want you cashing this audio, as well. because there are plenty of podcasters out there who will be quite happy if you catch the audio. if you can actually. Allow creators to keep control of their content. I think that's a very wise thing, but as I say, I'm not sure that a licensed tag necessarily does that.

Sam:

Okay. And now for our favorite time of the week, it's booster gram.

James:

It is booster Graham corner. And, next week, and in fact for two weeks, I'm out of the house because they are, taking the floor to pieces and re painting the floor and sanding the floor and everything else. So we can't be here for two weeks. that's concerning me because I have to turn my. Probably, so we'll see quite what happens. I've been thinking this evening have a way of keeping the internet going, which will keep the umbral going, but that may be having the router in a plastic bag, suspended from the ceiling. We'll see quite how far that. But anyway, while we still have them booster Graham corner, if you have a boost button on your new podcast app, then you can hit it and send us a message and a boost. If you find value in what you're listening to. first, is a boost, for you, Sam from, Dave Jones, 726 sets from.

Sam:

yeah. It's for me since he had to endure the devil's advocate this week. Yes. I better get an email from you when your umbrella is up and running. Yeah. if yours is going to be off, I bet it might not actually on this point very quickly when I spoke to Oscar. he only allows one host to claim the podcast in fountain. And I assume rightly by the way, I assume that you've claimed our podcasts pod land in fountain, and therefore, any sites that come through fountain will go through to you. Is that true?

James:

I haven't claimed it on fountain, but, I have claimed it in the podcast of wallet, at podcast index, which is the same kind of thing. so yes, but I can add a split. So yeah. So as soon as your umbrella is up and running, then I can give you that it's on now. then I can actually give you a split and you get to see the, the boosts as well. So if you're, if your thing is up and running, then, once we've finished recording today, then I will get the relevant information and I will stick you in there so that you get half the boosts. There's a plan. there's

Sam:

a plan and also, fountains. Next version is, talking about also enabling splits as well within their application. I thought I should mention that. Which

James:

is always a good thing. And we got a boost from fountain this week from a Mr. K Finn. Thank you very much, Kevin. Very kind of you, who of course, works at, at Buzzsprout our sponsor. And, he says my first boost from fountain. Do you guys see the timestamp when I boost it? And the quick answer is no, but we could, I believe it's in the TLV record. And, one of the things that's happening with heli pad over the next month or so is that, is going to look a little bit more exciting and, we will be able to see those timestamps if they exist. so that's going to be very exciting. So Kevin, thank you so much for your boost of 4,401 sets. I'm not quite sure what the numerology is around that, but, thank you so much for that.

Sam:

Yeah. Now we've had one from the pod father. We had a 3, 3, 3 stats. add one more three on that, James, that would make sense. What did he say?

James:

he said yes, legacy apps, great term. He likes your concept of legacy apps, the pod father himself. thank you very much. Adam, and both Adam and Dave from the podcast index have both sent 6, 6, 6, 6 SATs. it's the devil's advocate boost, and they both liked my Valiant attempt to play devil's advocate. about these moaning minis, wittering on about Joe Rogan and, just pointing out that, all of these musicians have other reasons why they want to go out and shout about Spotify. So there you go. Thank you both for your very kind, boosts. appreciate that. And if you're listening to it, On a new podcast app, then great. Hit that post button and send us a message. And if you're not, it's time to get1@newpodcastapps.com. now you are going to, somewhere exciting, what, next week or the week after podcast futures, 2022, which is in Westminster in London. Yes.

Sam:

I'm hoping to, a lot of other people I've spoken to are hoping to as well. I spoke to, or I sent a message to Gerald saying I still haven't had any confirmation. He said it's on its way. So hopefully for February the 22nd. Yeah, there'll be a few of us in London meeting up it be quite.

James:

Yeah, it looks really good. I am on that list. I can tell you I'm not going. and as far as I'm aware, I'm not actually speaking either, but still there we are. it'd be on the list for, as a speaker. I'm not sure it's going to happen, but anyway, it should be worthwhile, in February and it's being run by podcast, radio and stuff. In London, the podcast show 2022 tickets go on sale on Tuesday. Next week, they are promising 350 world-class speakers, inspirational content, and more than 120 industry brands by day and by night, a week long program. Podcasts stage shows, including this very podcast, which is very exciting and possibly we'll get a live pod news as well, because I need to record it. So I record it at the beginning of recording of Podland. You can sign up to the newsletter of the podcast. today, for, the latest pod news is a media partner. I should tell you, they aren't at verb podcast, show london.com. That's the podcast show london.com and it would be fantastic to see you in my birth city, as I believe I have to call it these days, in may.

Sam:

and we will also be hosting a land drink cup in the center.

James:

We will. Yes, we may as well spend some of these Bitcoins wisely. So yes, we're all going to the pub. I believe that Brian Barletta from the sounds profitable podcast is coming as well. so that should be good. yes, we will give you, emails and things like that to. In touch with us. So you can find out where that is in future episodes. so looking forward to drinking some beer while we're there some proper British, slightly warm, a bit flat, beer, that would be nice.

Sam:

It's an acquired taste and we will be announcing a sponsor for that drink.

James:

Excellent. I'm glad that more about that than I do shock on your

Sam:

face.

James:

Excellent. I'm always a fan of sponsors paying for alcohol. That's always the best plan of sponsors. Alban, it's a plan, always a plan, while we're in LA as well. and the winners of the IRL podcast awards 2022 were announced. I noticed, you can watch that again on YouTube. the winner of the podcast of the year was your wrong about which is an excellent podcast and the people watching it with a virtual. we're very excited that they ended up winning, as well. And Sam and I will also be out podcast movement evolutions in LA, in March. I am very much looking forward to it. I've just been filling out some of the forms, getting myself an international COVID certificate and everything else. still trying to understand exactly what I needed to do in terms of tests, but I'm getting there so that. So I'm hoping to do that. So what's been happening for you this week on pod lands?

Sam:

I had a great week and then I went and blew it. So I had some cleaning liquid in my bag next to my laptop. Never do the two things together and leaked all over my Mac book hair. And now some might say that was deliberate because I've been in the market for an Y Mac book for awhile. Tootled along to the apple store on Saturday and picked up one. So I have a brand new Mac book, air, and Brian Barletta, friend of the show was asking about what he should get next. Brian Mac book pro M one. Very nice.

James:

Very nice. Where's your local apple store is it's not the fancy one in Oxford street. Is it?

Sam:

No, th happened to have another one in Redding, so it's not too bad. And, my daughter is very happy cause she, she will get the repaired MacBook air.

James:

well there you go. that's a lovely thing.

Sam:

So James what's happened for you in Portland this week.

James:

I'm glad you asked. I just covered today that pod news is now doing over a hundred thousand downloads a month, which I'm quite excited about, which is good. a lot of that on smart speaker news briefings. which is a real opportunity. If you're a very small, very short podcast, it's a real good place to be, particularly Google's. If you can get in there, there is a secret of getting in there, but unfortunately I'm sworn to secrecy there. I did notice a couple of other things PocketCasts is doing incredibly well. I notice, for the pod news podcast, I'm not quite sure why. Facebook has 20 lessons, Spotify. 27 lessons, podcasts about podcasts do really badly on Spotify and Amazon music. Amazon music has about 27 lessons, less than Spotify, Amazon music. why did they get into, podcasting? when clearly they're just not driving any traffic really interesting, but anyway, so they have a smart. Yeah, they do have a smart speaker. Funnily enough. I'm in there as well on their news daily thing as well, their daily briefing, as well. And that does virtually no traffic whatsoever either. I wonder what the deal is in terms of Amazon. and podcasting, it's a fascinating thing almost as much as the deal is with Google and podcasting. I noticed today that the Google, the Google play namespace, which are Google used to support for many years has been removed from their website completely. so they no longer actually support their own namespace, which is interesting. So I'm going to. Around that a little bit more and see if I can find anybody who's still working at Google podcasts and, find out what the deal is anyway.

Sam:

I have to say, Alexa has flat-lined for me, it's become very dull and boring.

James:

Any who, that's it for this week.

Sam:

Indeed. It is. hope you've enjoyed this episode. Please follow pod land in your podcast app and on Twitter at Podland news, you can find all our previous shows on the web at www dot Portland.

James:

Yes. And if you want daily news, you should get pod news. The newsletter is free@podnews.net. The podcast can be found in your podcast app.

Sam:

Will. The stories we've discussed on Podland today are in the show notes. We use chapters and transcripts and the stories were taken from.

James:

And a music is from ignite. Jingles were hosted and sponsored by our good friends at Buzzsprout keep listening.